Podcasting 2.0 June 5th 2026 Episode 262 - "Podcleanse"

  Dave and Adam are joined by John Spurlock and throw a big idea into the boardroom: The Podcast Data Collective
  Today
    Three weeks ago, Mike Dell helped Adam and Dave with the solution to the Secret Podcast Group. This week the <b>Alliance for Measurement in Podcasting (AMP)</b> ratifies its framework — "four exposure definitions, no dissenting votes" — while Podcast Index Issue #775 chips away at the same problem in the open.
    And PNWR confirms it: James and Sam open this week's Pod News Weekly Review by debating what counts as "an impression" and asking who's actually in the AMP council. Spotify yes, Acast no, Art19 missing, Apple already running their own version.
    Meanwhile Captivate (owned by Global) launches <b>DAX US</b>, the BBC commits year three of <b>Crossed Wires</b>, YouTube Music adds podcast recommendations, and Tom Rossi presents Issue #775 at the London podcast show.
    <i>Closed cabal vs open governance — who decides what counts as a podcast download in 2026? And what do we call the open-side answer? Matthew 5:6: "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." The Podcasting 2.0 Data Collective.</i>
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Positioning
  The Podcast Index is here to preserve, protect and extend the open, independent podcasting ecosystem.
  We do this by enabling developers to have access to an open, categorized index that will always be available for free, for any use.
  Try a new podcast app today and see how much better the experience can be.
  Boost Bait
  Boostagrams numerology
  Curiocaster social data
  What is <b>Value4Value</b>? - Read all about it at Value4Value.info
  V4V Stats
Shownotes
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  John Spurlock - Guest
    The man behind op3.dev and Livewire.io - From the Great State of New Jersey!
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  01 - THE IMPRESSION HEIST — AMP TASK FORCE RATIFIES 4 EXPOSURE DEFINITIONS, NO DISSENTING VOTES
    Podnews press release Jun 4: <b>AMP Task Force Introduces Cross-Platform Alternative to the Podcast "Download"</b> — "unified impression guidance for audio and video, advancing impression-based measurement as the medium's primary transaction currency."
    <b>Four exposure definitions ratified</b>. JS Jun 4 quote: "the AMP Task Force ratified a new framework with four exposure definitions, with no dissenting votes."
    Podcast Play: 30 seconds of content played, audio or video, once per user per session.
      Podcast Audience: The number of unique users who had a Podcast Play.
      Ad Impression: A commercial begins playing for the user.
      Ad Audience: The number of users exposed to an Ad Impression.
    <b>They wanted to 'hasten the demand'</b>
    Backstory: AMP first emerged May 29 (Podnews) — same day PC20-261 aired — "to confront podcasting's measurement dilemma."
    <b>@dave reaction</b> Jun 4 16:12: "RE: [Podnews AMP story] More secretive, back room podcast 'industry' nonsense."
    <b>PNWR Jun 5 confirms the cabal-composition critique</b> — James and Sam open the show debating AMP. James: "they also want to define what an impression is" + "we don't have a definition of podcast." Sam: "I don't think podcasting is [defined], we can measure consumption."
    <b>PNWR catches the gaps</b> [0:09:00-0:09:30]: "Spotify yes, Acast no, Art19 missing… Apple is already doing that. Apple is already being cut [out]." Same observation @dave made — who's in the room and who isn't.
    <b>@js replies @dave on AMP</b> Jun 4: "@dave Dave there were no dissenting votes" — Mastodon-thread confirmation that JS + Dave are on the same page about the consensus-by-cabal red flag.
    Discussion: V4V counter-thesis — No Agenda is value-for-value (no impressions, no exposures). Open standards vs industry cabals. PNWR is independent-podcaster-aligned; AMP is platform-aligned.
    Podnews AMP Jun 4 press release
    Podnews AMP origin May 29
    @dave Jun 4 reaction post
    JS Jun 4 quote post
    PNWR this week (Pod News Weekly Review)
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  02 - THE OPEN COUNTERPART — PODCAST INDEX ISSUE #775 (PNWR + @DAVE BOTH ON IT)
    <b>Issue #775 "Improving Client Identification in the Podcast Ecosystem"</b> — opened May 30 by Tom Rossi (Buzzsprout). 25 comments in 6 days. Still OPEN, still arguing.
    Problem statement: "podcast hosting providers have no reliable way to identify the application requesting media beyond the User-Agent header… User-Agent strings are entirely self reported and easy to spoof."
    This is <i>the same problem AMP is trying to solve</i> — but in the open, on GitHub, with public debate.
    <b>PNWR ALSO covered #775 this week</b> [1:35:40-1:43:00 in the AI corner segment]. James: <i>"Tom presented [the idea] at the London podcast show… Tom is trying to make it so [there's a way to verify the client]."</i>
    <b>PNWR's DKIM analog framing</b>: "DKIM essentially is a piece of security which proves that [an email] is from me using a public and private key… in order to download files." Same crypto-signature primitive in #775.
    PNWR notes the dissent: <i>"a lot of people who are jumping up and down… some have this sort of religious belief that we shouldn't be [signing requests]… put it in mobile apps in the code base [is the rub]."</i>
    Sponsor-flex disclosure: <i>"comes from our sponsor Buzzsprout, is an idea that I [support]"</i> — PNWR transparent that Tom Rossi is Buzzsprout. Editorial honesty under the consensus debate.
    <b>@dave on the technical merits</b> (Jun 1): "HTTP signatures on podcast media download requests… requires lots of careful thought to avoid bad outcomes. But, at the moment at least, I do feel it would be use[ful]."
    @dave lived experience: "I fight bots and dishonest user-agent strings on podcast index multiple days per week, every week."
    <b>@dave on open vs closed governance</b> (Jun 3): "Discussions/debates like this being hashed out in the open are so refreshing and beneficial. For way too many years podcasting tech has been infected with secret slack channels and Telegram groups driving [decisions]."
    Issue #775 — Improving Client Identification
    Tom Rossi (issue author, Buzzsprout)
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  03 - THE WHY BEHIND IMPRESSIONS — "THE FIRST FOUR AND A HALF MINUTES"
    <b>JS Spurlock Jun 4 19:55</b> — the limited-series pitch: "Someone make a limited series called 'The first four and a half minutes' — wherein podcast ad experts tell the story of the first 4:30 of popular podcasts that are nothing but ads, using actual backend data. Who bids for these, how much? Who listens to these other than listeners strapped to a table?"
    This IS the why behind impression-based measurement: ads at the front of the file are NOT being LISTENED TO. They’re just being delivered. So the industry needs a metric that counts the DELIVERY, not the listening.
    <b>JS Jun 4 16:43 — the terminology shift</b>: "I'll be using 'exposure'-based terminology much more in the future when talking about ads — feels tonally more accurate than the benign-to-slightly-positive-sounding 'impression'."
    <b>Concrete exhibit — @dave Jun 4 13:45</b>: "iHeart is stuffing their podcasts to the brim with ads." + "Ed Zitron's podcast is great but the ad to content ratio is off the chart. There is probably 8 minutes of ads in a 20 minute podcast."
    <b>PNWR's concrete exhibit — DAX US</b> (just-launched Captivate/Global ad marketplace) — see Topic 04 below. PNWR walks through how the new platform measures, targets, and bills for impressions. That's the IRL impression economy AMP is trying to standardize.
    <b>The CPM unitless joke</b> — JS Jun 4 20:34: "'CPM' just made me smile — 'cost per thousand' per thousand what? ambiguity is baked into the core metric, it's unitless really should be CPMI."
    @dave iHeart Jun 4
    @dave Zitron ad ratio Jun 4
    JS "first 4:30" series Jun 4
    JS "exposure" terminology Jun 4
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  04 - THE PODCASTING 2.0 DATA COLLECTIVE — THE OPEN ANSWER TO AMP
    <b>The Podcasting 2.0 Data Collective</b> — the open, V4V-aligned answer to the AMP cabal. Not a consortium with ratified definitions and trade-press releases. A collective of open tools and honest sentinels: OP3 for analytics, Podverse + newpodcasts.net for corpus data, Podcast Index for the namespace, Issue #775 for client identification done right.
    <b>Matthew 5:6</b> (KJV): "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." The verse that frames the work. Open data, transparent measurement, value-for-value — righteousness in podcast governance. Those who hunger for it are the ones who'll be filled. The AMP cabal trades righteousness for an ad-tech seat at the table; the Data Collective just keeps the lights on.
    <b>THE CHARTER — Adam's working document, June 5 2026</b>
      <b>We hold more power than we give ourselves credit for.</b>
      <b>Definition of a Podcast: Syndicated delivery of media files with precise consumption data for all stakeholders.</b>
      What we brought in (the Podcasting 2.0 namespace contributions):
        Transcripts
        Chapters
        Funding (V4V)
        Person
        Location
        …etc.
      <b>Statistical relevance:</b> Advertising is based on percentages. Collectively we have about 10% of all apps — statistically enough to be relevant.
      <b>Godcaster app tracing proves we can measure important metrics.</b>
      Data to aggregate and display:
        Follows
        Plays per episode
        Completion rate by time
      <b>Strategy:</b>
        Become the authoritative source by publishing open stats
        Monetize
      <b>We will not be loved initially by the industry, because we will have the truth.</b>
      Advertisers will love us though, as will Podcasters.
      <b>Monetization:</b>
        Data subscriptions
        Resellers (DJL)
        Ad Networks
        Podcasters themselves (consideration)
      Podcast Index has built the trust needed to house this data.
      We already have a data exchange relationship with the apps.
      <b>op3.dev is critical in this equation to offset the old system for correlation.</b>
    <b>OP3 full podcast support landed this week</b> [PNWR 1:53:00-1:54:30] — OP3.dev now has full episode-level + show-level analytics support for podcasts. Spec work also moving on private feeds (insecure feeds spec). Direct relevance to V4V infrastructure.
    <b>@dave → @james Jun 5 11:50</b>: "Do you have the daily lists that show up on newpodcasts.net available anywhere as a download? I'd love the full, historical list of feed urls that have appeared there if possible." Open-data request — corpus curation theme.
    <b>@dave → @mitch May 30</b>: "Would you be able to send me a flat list of all the feed urls in Podverse which have more than X number of subscribers/followers? Let's say more than 5?" Podverse data request — corpus quality.
    <b>Anchor FM RSS restoration request</b> — Fri 11:01 email to NA inbox (Lusso Lets). Listener can't retrieve feed data from Podcast Index. Adjacent infra beat — the unsung user-facing pain of corpus indexing.
    Discussion: corpus curation as a steady-state job (Dave's sentinel work) vs measurement standards (the AMP cabal) — which one keeps the ecosystem honest? The Data Collective doesn't ratify, it just shows up to maintain. Hunger and thirst. They shall be filled.
    OP3.dev — open podcast analytics
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  05 - CAPTIVATE LAUNCHES DAX US — THE IMPRESSION ECONOMY IRL
    <b>PNWR headline topic #1 this week</b> — Captivate (Global-owned podcast host) launches DAX US, the US ad marketplace for podcast monetization.
    PNWR [0:18:00-0:34:00]: <i>"Captivate was bought by Global a few years [back]… now Captivate and DAX US. What we're launching there is actually this [marketplace where] anyone qualifies to go into the ad marketplace."</i>
    Targeting promise: <i>"allow for contextual and brand suitability targeting for advertisers… within that radius and in that catchment area."</i> Geo + contextual + brand-fit — programmatic-grade.
    <i>"Hosting companies in [the past] have been moving lower and lower."</i> Translation: hosting margins compressed → ad-tech-stack-as-monetization is the new hosting margin play.
    Partner stack: <i>"PodScribe becoming a mainstay in the U.S. agencies"</i> — PodScribe is the IAB-accredited measurement layer Captivate plugs into.
    <b>Discussion bait</b>: Captivate is Adam-adjacent (the indie-friendly host). Global is a UK ad-radio giant. DAX is the ad marketplace AMP is trying to standardize ABOVE. So Captivate/Global ate Acast's lunch upstream — does AMP just bless the existing ad-tech consolidation?
    <i>"All looking at, I think, the best way that we…"</i> [PNWR cliffhanger 0:31:39] — the interview pivots to "what is a podcast?" definitional grenade.
    Captivate Audio
    DAX US (Global)
    PodScribe (measurement partner)
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  06 - BBC GOES ALL-IN ON CROSSED WIRES YEAR 3 — IPLAYER DEAL + "EDINBURGH OF PODCASTING"
    <b>PNWR headline topic #2 this week</b> — Year 3 of BBC <b>Crossed Wires</b> podcast festival in Sheffield (not London — "the Edinburgh of podcasting" framing).
    PNWR [1:09:00-1:31:00]: <i>"We've struck a deal with BBC iPlayer… newscasts and shows like that, but also commercial."</i> BBC commits to podcast-as-video distribution.
    Festival programming: Greg James and Michael Palin in 400-cap theatre (then doubled). Joe Wiley. "Gardner's [Question Time]." Big legacy BBC names headlining.
    <i>"This isn't podcasting [strictly]. You can be entertained by just watching two [people in a studio]"</i> — live podcasting as theatre/spectacle. Format pivot from audio-only to live-show.
    Persephoneca (the company behind Crossed Wires) — represented by WME. <i>"We don't call ourselves a production company anymore. We are an [entertainment company]."</i> Production-co to entertainment-co positioning.
    <b>Discussion bait</b>: Public broadcaster (BBC) commits HARD to podcast format and live festival — same week the AMP cabal forms to standardize impression measurement for the AD-TECH side. Two divergent futures for podcasting. Which one is V4V-friendly?
    Parasocial framing: <i>"What we've recreated [with video] is the parasocial relationship… we're not on web cameras, we're in a 90s retro office set."</i>
    Crossed Wires Festival (Sheffield)
    Persephoneca (production co)
    BBC iPlayer
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  07 - STREAMING CONSOLIDATION — YOUTUBE MUSIC + TUBI + NETFLIX ALL WANT "PODCAST"
    <b>YouTube Music adds podcast recommendations</b> [PNWR 0:43:00-0:46:30]: podcast-like controls now in YouTube Music app. "800 million hours of podcasts from YouTube premium users" claimed — PNWR called out the contempt-marketing tone.
    <b>Tubi + SiriusXM deal</b> [PNWR 0:55:00-0:57:00]: <i>Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend, Rotten Mango, What Now? with Trevor Noah</i> — all going video on Tubi (Fox-owned). Shared between Tubi and SiriusXM.
    <b>"First podcast on Netflix"</b>: <i>The Rest is Football</i> — UK Goalhanger podcast added to Netflix. PNWR: "Is this the first podcast on Netflix which is [exclusive]?"
    <b>Discussion bait</b>: every legacy streamer is now a "podcast platform." When the term "podcast" describes Netflix exclusives and Tubi video shows, what does "open podcasting" even mean? V4V + RSS-first thesis stays load-bearing precisely because of this.
    <b>The grudging upside on YouTube</b> — @js Jun 4: "@dabluck lol for all of the weird pretzels youtube makes its publishers twist themselves into in order to be shown, a net-positive one is that videos are forced to get to the point - immediately - right up front." Inverse of the "first 4:30 of ads" thesis — YouTube's algo enforces what podcasting (with its audio-fronted-ads) has failed to.
    YouTube Music
    Tubi (Fox)
    Goalhanger — The Rest is Football
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  08 - SUPPLY CHAIN SECURITY — VS CODE DELAYS, PHP FOUNDATION, SLSA LEVEL 3 IS NOT ENOUGH
    <b>Continuing arc from PC20-261</b> — Dave's package-manager-supply-chain-attacks thesis "OSS weaponized by AI." New items this cycle.
    <b>VS Code 2-hour extension update delay</b> — JS Jun 4 19:53: "latest VS Code now applies a two-hour delay before automatically updating extensions, except from 'trusted publishers such as Microsoft, GitHub, and OpenAI'." + "obviously a small improvement to try and deal with future supply chain attacks in what are probably tasty targets: vscode extensions."
    <b>PHP Foundation Ecosystem Security Team</b> — @dave May 31 reblog with quote: "PHP is foundational to the modern web, and ensuring its security is essential for a significant portion of the web's functionality and integrity."
    <b>SLSA Build Level 3 npm attack</b> — @dave May 21: "first documented npm supply chain attack shipping malware with valid SLSA Build Level 3 provenance, so 'has provenance' no longer means 'not malicious'."
    <b>5,700+ commits in 6 hrs</b> — @dave May 22: "5,700+ commits in six hours, 5,561 repositories, one payload: replace a GitHub Actions workflow with a dormant secret exfiltration backdoor."
    VS Code 1.123 release notes — delayed extension auto-updates
    PHP Foundation Ecosystem Security Team
    SLSA Build Level 3 npm attack diary
    5,700+ commit dormant backdoor — safedep
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  09 - AI BUBBLE PC20-FLAVOR — TOTO CHUCKS, MOTHER COMPUTERS, "NO 'I', ONLY MATH"
    <b>Toto AI ceramic electrostatic chucks</b> — JS Jun 4 16:50, Futurism: "Toto's main contribution to the AI market revolves around the production of electrostatic chucks. The vast majority of e-chucks are made of ceramic — hence Toto's seemingly random decision to add them to its portfolio." Surreal AI-adjacent industry consolidation: the toilet company now sells AI infrastructure.
    <b>@dave "Mother computers"</b> — Jun 4 16:22: "We always looked at computers in 80's sci-fi movies like Aliens, with their natural language intelligence bound to a CLI interface as an anachronism. Looks like it really was the future after all. A decade from now we may all have 'Mother' computers on our desk."
    <b>@dave on Pi coding agent vs Claude Code</b> — May 29 16:49: "The Pi coding agent shows you all the sausage being made (reasoning/thinking blocks) that Claude Code hides from you. The same sort of basic, repeated mistake -> recovery loops are constant noise and show how fragile the whole thing is."
    <b>@dave on what makes AI work</b> — May 29 16:53: "The only reason it produces workable code in the end is that code is testable. It either lints/runs and conforms to a deterministic output or it doesn't. Almost nothing else works that way. The world outside of coding and math is squishy."
    <b>@dave thesis quip</b> — May 28: "There is no 'I'. Only math."
    Futurism — Toto AI bubble article (JS link)
    <b>Clips available from NA-1874 (carry-forward — 22 clips staged in /03 AI-BUBBLE/ for board-meeting discussion):</b>
      <b>00 ai-cognition-cmu-ucla</b>
        KTLA — CMU/UCLA: AI use 10-15 min reduces persistence, cognitive decline profound + difficult to reverse
      <b>01 anthropic-ipo</b>
        Rooney CNBC — Anthropic S-1 CONFIDENTIALLY filed, OpenAI rivalry, SpaceX 965B financing
        Rooney CNBC — LAUGH TELLS on Altimeter/Sequoia "strong hands," Altman + Amadei NOT holding hands
      <b>02 florida-sues-openai</b>
        13News — Florida AG Uthmeier sues OpenAI/Sam Altman re: FSU mass shooting suspect "Phoenix Ignor" ChatGPT planning attack
      <b>03 jensen-rtx-spark</b> (the Mother-computers exhibit)
        Jensen Nvidia — 3 revolutionary Windows machines (desktop/laptop/workstation), 100% CUDA, MSI
        Jensen Nvidia — 24-7 meter-free "lobster water heater" AI agent, Nemotron, DGX Station 768GB / 20 petaflops on desk
        Jensen Nvidia — AI supercomputer-in-your-house theory, phone analogy, 10-yr home-theater agent vision
      <b>04 msm-multi</b> (chorus — the AI-bubble chorus)
        Casar CNBC — AI token tax, mass unemployment, super-PACs spending 100M to silence reps
        Sacks All-In — Jevons paradox, knowledge workers, radiologists, AI creates jobs not destroys
        <b>Gurley All-In — Anthropic Dr. Frankenstein theory, "midwifing a deity," Machines of Loving Grace, Prometheus narcissism</b> (<i>perfect for Dave</i>)
      <b>05 stargate-michigan</b>
        Faber CNBC — Whitmer + Stargate Michigan, values, union labor, closed-loop water, DTE grid
        Faber CNBC — Whitmer cannot let China dominate AI, hot on our bumper, farmland water, 2500 workers
        Faber CNBC — Whitmer: AI not going to replace human intelligence, Congress ethical rules
        Faber + Demare BoA — 144A debt, $30-50B range, incredible capital needs, borrowers low in debt
      <b>06 zitron-bloomberg</b> (the bear-side chorus)
        Zitron — bulls conflate semiconductor rally, Anthropic + Musk manipulated ROI, Uber
        Zitron — winners: Jensen + construction; Altman/Amadei billionaires, S-1 massacre, OpenAI 20B
        Zitron — "rot.com bubble," hyperscalers no hypergrowth, Meta no plan, Twilight Zone scary child
        Zitron — Apple Intelligence: largest-scale anti-tech radicalization in history, losing proposition
        <b>Zitron — OpenAI + Anthropic should NOT be allowed to go public, dangerous lossy sink, 401k</b> (<i>closer</i>)
      <b>07 trump-ai-exec-order-gov-review</b>
        NPR Morning Edition — Trump signs order requesting AI companies submit products for gov review (3 cuts)
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  10 - QUIPS / TRANSITIONS
    @dave May 31: "'You either die a software hero or you live long enough to start enshittification.' --Some guy on Reddit"
    @dave May 28: "There is no 'I'. Only math."
    @dave May 22: "Did that really need an adverb?"
    @dave May 22: "Just another day in paradise."
    JS Jun 4: "globally unique, guys - it's takena guid for the ages"
    JS Jun 4 20:34 on CPM: "'CPM' just made me smile — 'cost per thousand' per thousand what? ambiguity is baked into the core metric, it's unitless really should be CPMI"
    PNWR Sam Jun 5: "in front of a microphone and it comes out every [week]" — Sam's working definition of "podcast" mid-AMP-debate
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